PLATO
Challenge to the notion that it is good to be just
model city
education
structure of the soul
just city ruled by philosophers
metaphysics of goodness/theory of the forms
Cephalus and Polemarchus discussion
Is it always just to return what one owes?
Madman has lost his weapon - is it just to return it?
Polemarchus: it is just to give to each what is owed to him
he means that friends owe it to their friends to do good for them never harm
justice is helping friends and harming enemies
Socrates rebuttal
justice is a craft and every craft aims at something good
so if justice is a craft and all crafts aim at some good, it cannot be just to harm enemis
Thrasymachus thesis
Justice is nothing but the advantage of the stronger
1: it is just for the ruling party to do what is in their own interest
2: it is just for the ruled party to obey and to do what is in the interest of the ruling party
laws are just and obeying the law is just
Counter-argument
if rules make mistakes, then they make laws that are not to their advantage, but it is just for the ruled to obey laws so acting agaisnt the advantage of the ruler is just and unjust
modified position
the ruler qua ruler does not make mistakes; if they make mistakes they don't do it qua ruler. Art/craft of ruling is in question, not what an individual ruler happens to devide. Justice is tha rt or craft to do what is to the advantage of the ruler
click to edit
Nature of craft argument Socrates
- every craft has a prupose (to serve subject matter), 2. a ruler needs to serve that of his subject matter
Shepherds and cowherd's do not seek the good of the sheep when they fatten them
S: this does not contradict the craft of shepherding: T has confused the craft of shepherding and the reason why the shepherd practises the craft
two different conceptions of what craft is
ruling is understood normatively: there is a right way and wrong way to rule
THe acrument from outdoing
in practicing a craft the expert does not outdo other experts but outsodes non-experts. UNjust person outdoes everyone so cannot be a practitioner of craft. Just person is good and clever so jsutice is a virtue
huge steps
function argument
some things have a function, exercising an art or craft is exercising a function. This can be done well or badly. If something is good at function then this this possesses virtue
outdo = pleonektein. not to outdo but maximise one's possession of some good
justice enables a human soul to live well and whoever lives well is happy so just person is happy
Glaucon's challenge
three kinds of good
sought for own sake and not consequences
sought for own sake and consequences
not sought for own sake and yes consequences
pleasure/enjoyment
wisdom, sight
medical treatment
Socrates: justice
Glaucon devil ad: justice
ring of gyges: only thing that matters regarding justice are the consequences
Who is better off?
perfectly just person with reputation of being unjust
perfectly unjust person with reputation of being just
socrates has to show this
the task
we need to know what justice is in order to see whether it is good in itself or because of consequences
Glaucon and S both agree that consequences are good, but socrates needs to prove it is good in itself
Glaucon's social contract theory
"profitable to come to an agreement with each other neither to do injustice nor to suffer it"
link to social contract theory and Hobbes
appeals to agreement made among everyone
justice conerns the actions in the community
acting justly is obeying the laws agreed upon by the community, acting justly is all that matters
does not matter whether a person is just
Socrates' further task: show that better for individual person to be just person, not just to act justly
how to find justice in the individual person?
examine large letters first then smaller ones to see whether they are same
small letters: justice in the individual, large letters: justice in the city
origin of the city
comes because we are not all self-sufficient - out of need
contrast to glaucon: not founded in the suffering of injustice by in the needs that human beings have
needs: food, shelter, clothes (farmer, builder etc)
Principle of Specialisation
easier to spend all of your time specialising in one thing then splitting your time doing everything
Glaucon's reply: city of pigs
only natural desires are satisfied (context: Glaucon member of elite)
"they should recline on proper couches"
civilised city needs culture, healthy city overlooked that we are social creatures
=healthy city
new problem: unlimited desires to be satisfied
either limit desire or acquire more of what you desire, or go to war
just city
guardians
gentle/high spirited, job to guard the city
link to pedigree dog
two types of guardians
rulers
auxiliaries
older, best of the guardians - knowledgeable and capable
producers
noble falsehood
ignorance
useful falsehood
falsehood in word - does not harm soul of the listener - must be useful
doctor tells a lie to his patient or parents tell lies to children - lie is not deserving hatred
2 stories to help city
if anyone attacks defend it as their mother and nurse
god mixed some with gold, some silver and some bronze and iron
citizens can accept the existence of the class-system
unites city and provides citizens with an identity
why does education matter?
aducation aims to educate and shape the person and cultivate person as social being
Plato aims to build a new city which needs a new culture - in order to realise new culture the future guardians need to be educated
only those people become guardians who are capable of receiving the education necessary for the culture of the city
shaping the character
harmony, grace and rhythm follow simplicity of character
important for glaucaon
we are social beings, but also rational
significant of beauty
we must seek out craftsmen who are by nature able to pursue what is beuaiful
education in music and poetry permeate the inner part of the soul
people educated will be able to identify things not well crafted
culture needs physical training
arouse spirited part of nature
what about rational nature?
only for rulers (maths and philosophy)
virtue and happiness in the city
we want a virtuous citt as well as jsut city = happy city
guardians: not allows any property other than what they need- communal life
not aiming to make any one group outstandingly happy
4 virtues of the city
wisdom
guaridnaship possessed by rulers
courage
preserve thgouth everything its beleif about whay things to be feared
moderation
city needs to be control of itself and its pleasures and desires
justice/injustice
desires are limited
guardians are limited deaires thanks to education, produceers limited because of rulers
thanks to auxiliaroes
thanks to rulers
thanks to harmony between rulers
each class does that it ought to do
develop separte account of the soul as the soul is invisible
nowadays we refer to mind over soul
interested in examining human living
relates to human desires, emotions and actions
city was just when each of the three natural classes did its own work
some individuals are
spirited
lovers of learning
lovers of money
all humans have same kind of soul thus with all these characteristics
raiotnal desire: learning
spirited desire: getting angry
appetitive desire: pleasure of food, drink, sex
principle of opposites
Something can be red and blue at the same time.
But it cannot be red and blue in the same part at the same time.
Something can be red and blue in the same part.
But it cannot be red and blue in the same part at the same time.
A mouse can be large and small at the same time.
It is large relative to a molecule but small relative to a mountain
someone stnading still and being in motion: one part of the person is doing eahc
spinning tops: axis stand still as they do not move but circumference moves in circle
Leontius wanted to look at dead corpsese( appetite( but was disgusted
appetite gave in
pairs of opposite motivations: appetite and reason
what is spirit?
honour-loving part. Children are spirited but not rational
accounts for fact we are social animals, include capacities for competitiong, solidarity, aggression. Aims at status, reputation and honour. Inward looking: spirit plays curical part in moderating one's own appetites
holds onto customs and tradition
human being
three cities
The healthy city provides for our animal nature.
The civilized city provides also for our social nature
The just city provides also for our rational nature
as natural animal: appetite
as social animal: spirit
as rational animal: reason
ruling part rules and ruled part is ruled. Reason with help of spirit rules and the appetitive part is ruled
city was just because each of three classes was doing own work - each of our parts doing own work
justice occurs when every soul part does what it ought to do. Just person has harmonious soul. Every part does what it ought to do independently of external facots. So better off being just than unjust no matter what
what is a philosopher?
"fitted by nature"
First approximation
those who like learning
problem: too broad: lots of people who love to learn about sounds and images v(eg festival goers) - are they philosophers
philosophers are those who love the sight of truth
beautiful things and beauty itself
lovers of sights and sounds like beautiful sounds but are unable to see and embrace the nature of the beautiful itself
all beautiful things have beauty itself in common
all circles have something in common
it is being a circle iteslf = form
knowledge and opinion (doxa)
opinion stands for something the person believes because it appears to them to be so
eg sons appears to me beautiful then I am of the opinion that songs is beauts
object of knowledge is being
objects of geometry are completely knowable, if we master geometry we have full grasp of geometrical objects
=expert nowledge
seeing a tree is opinion
opinion is what is and what is not
beautiful things are in one way beautiful but have other properties eg size colour. And can change eg cute cat young not old
saying that something is and is does not violate principle of opposites
lovers of wisdom
love = when you want to spend time with it and be close to it
philosophers = lovers of wisdom, others = lovers of opinion
lovers of truth - they want to know what it is
Socrates does not have wisdom - but he needs it! Plato proposes education can make a few humans wise
education of philosophers
education of reason:mathematics and dialectic
maths is, abstract, no change, not concerned with senses, can only be grasped by thought/reason, knowledge not opinion
dialectice: beauty ITSELF, not beautiful things - forms
simile of the ship
imagine there is a captain who is shit at being a captain even though he is stronger - we need expert rulers
knoweldge of forms is necessary as we need to know the values that guide our lives
do they want to rule?
no - they should not be attracted by power or wealth - there must be a better life for them that they truly want to have
they owe it to the city that has given them an excellent education - they take turns
should they really rule?
kant: rulers do it because it is necessary
philosopher rulers
must possess wisdom
study maths and dialectic
wisdom = knowledge of values thus forms
forms
abstract objects not in time and space. Cannot see justice, hear jucist etc
what is x?
plato things there ar such things if we understand a form x
cannot have knowledge of things we perceive with senses as they change and forms do not change
justice does not change eg madman
the just city is jsut for a city but not justice itself - it displays justice as far as pos for a city
give us a standard allowing us to judge things as beautiful
form of the good - most important
we strive for what is good
highest form
simile of the sun
the sunday provides light for seeing visual objects, the fog provides light of good for knowing forms
simile of the line
check slides
simile of cave