Tagore - Gandhi debates

Shantiniketan

Started by RT's father for meditation

TR started a co-ed school on those premises in 1901

It became a university, Viswabharati in 1921

Charkha

Styles

Respect for each other

Gandhi's unique quality of debate with his opponents

Tagore

foreign cloth made a moral issue rather than an economic one

Nationalism

Caste

Fasting

Reason

Bihar earthquake due to untouchability

Tagore

What's physical must be caused by physcal

Unreason is our problem

Gandhi

I can't connect exactly but it made me feel good. Others like me will also feel good

Rt sent a response to Gandhi. Asked him to publish it if what Gandhi originally wrote was true. Trust.

Gandhi still raised funds for Viswa Bharti

willing to learn from each other

Special because they were willing to learn with each other even while disagreeing

Gandhi's bhakts criticised Tagore harshly, Gandhi didn't

Role of the State

Tagore

State has never been as imp as society unlike in Europe

blind goal of state power capture will only change the colour of people at the helm

Swaraj needs individuals to think and disagree.

Side point: Tagore vehemently opposed casteism but in Shantiniketan students refused to interdine until 1915. He didn't want to force this. Gandhi came and convinced people.

Tagore

After Japan's growth as imperialist power and what they did to China

Europe 1914-18

Nationalist Terrorism

There are things to be learnt from the west

Gandhi

Our nationalism is not exclusive. Not against anyone. It is humanitarian. Against the system

technology - poor need it. We can't compete by making things from bare hands

debate between sudents on both views that Rt presided on. Gndhi won. RT acknowledged that education has won.

Language - Hindi - both agreed

Gandhi: inter-provincial communication main language. Compulsory second language. Should it be the languge in Congress Session?

Tagore: yes. but later. There are people to whom it is foreign.

Freedom

Tagore

We have to earn the freedom. To earn it we have to prove that we are morally superior to The British govt.

India should fight for freedom of entire humanity. We are materially poor but morally and spiritually rich.

Nehru's tribute

Gandhi

a nation under bondage of European thinking cannot deliver any lesson to humanity

1/ Non-cooperation (2 problems - school children and meta-point of being non-cooperative)

Tagore

It's negative. Like Buddha's nirvana.

India's message to world should be of cooperation. Non-cooperation will unleash hatred.

Students should not be made to leave schools.

I believe in true meeting of East and West

Erecting barricades of fierce separateness in the name of national necessity is offering hindrance to it, therefore in the long run building a prison for the nation itself

We cannot reject something because it has come from the West

Gandhi

Non-cooperation is not about hating the West

English education is making us clerks

No choice other than violence or non-cooperation

asatya ko nakaarna utna hi zaroori hai jitna satya ko sweekaarna

Upanishads: Neti ending

We had lost all power to say no to goverrnment

Tagore:

Slavery of mind - blindly following others is also wrong.

We are blindly obeying someone because we are lazy. We don't want to do the hard work.

Parable of a Vina Maker. Master shouldn't say that take a wood, put a string and all would be okay. Needs to explain the complexities.

Swaraj cannot come with everyone giving up their work and spina an dweave instead

Cloth burning. It is a matter of economics not morality. Instead of covering our naked people with cloth we are blindly burning them

Swaraj - is in thinking. Blindly obeying someone also means no freedom.

Gandhi

The Great Sentinel: charkha is not being followed blindly. People have faith in it

In tough situations, we have to give up our usual professions for something bigger

Sspinning charkha is for dignity of labour

Economics and ethics are not different. Economics that leads to moral degradation cannot be upheld.

By burning foreign clothes, I burn my shame. I refuse to give them clothes but I give them work instead.

Uniformity being imposed is a hallmark of caste. That has led to repetition but not excellence. "burdened with a vocation that makesno allowance for variation in human nature. "

imposing any thought (like charkha) on people can produce expedient results but in the end it is about surrendering reason

poverty is complex and not resolved by spinning charkha

It is my belief that all civilisations have come to death whenmind of majority gets killed by some pressure of minority. for the truest ealth of man is mind

machines are usefuly. By working with hand we can't be productive

Vishnu's chakra denotes progress. By sticking to charkha we are denying science, an instrument of Vishnu

you cannot fight a foreign advanced force with old means

Tagore: if every good person fasts to remove evil of others, all good persons will die

Tagore: others will also copy

Tagore: penance can only be done by people themsleves

One must go through nationalism to reach internationalism

freedom to engage ideas from outside and freedom to support movements of the outside

Both are inspired by Indian thought

Our people have chosen Narayana over Narayani Sena