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Episode 8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAlW4S3oIL0 (Eric Rangell (Eric…

- - - - Eric: Yeah, as part of the project, I'm exploring mentoring protocols. Because my vision is that I'm learning is like climbing a mountain, and you have people on different levels, and they could help each other. And it could be informal, like students helping each other or it could be a formal mentoring arrangement, where people agree to meet at a specific time. And then that can also be tracked in a social ledger, and or blockchain. And the advantage of that is like, instead of having a paper transcript or something, you can have validated experiences where people vouch that they were mentored by you. So there's a lot of possibilities here. I just wanted to get the vision out there. So basically, if I'm trying to really clarify my vision, and documented at this point.
        
        David: I work with this.
        In fact, I was initially attracted to it through a peer to peer education project that I was doing. So I work with federated wiki. That's a wiki where everyone has their own data. I don't know if you know, this project.
        
        Eric 4:01
        Yeah, I started looking at it. It's very interesting.
        
        David Bovill 4:05
        So we have worked added to peer to peer protocols to it. So going back, I think four years, IPFS. And in the last two years that that protocol, so we have federated wiki working on that in the beaker browser, which gives you and since most of the projects in federated wiki are educational projects. So there's currently two quite significant education projects going on one in Oregon and one somewhere else.
        David 4:37
        And that's something we can talk about technically. So as well, because of the approach that this group made to the digital life collective to host the server and pay for our own server, which would have federated wiki actually hosted on a particular form server called the Graal server. But that's another question technical issue, which would be on the blockchain and use peer to peer technologies to link to other servers. Okay. So that any case, a lot of technical discussion there, and also, we could just start writing and sharing and experimenting in that space. And then the second thing we could talk about is just the whole theoretical aspect. Okay, so I spent about four years, three, four years, quite recently working on a peer to peer educational project using originally WordPress and then federated wiki, including a community currency where mentors would earn the currency for passing on their learning to their peers, and how that worked. And the problems with that working and what did work and what didn't work and how you started it, and how use it for coding, and also you can use it and other environments. And then, uh, since then I've come across two or three other projects, universities using similar methodology. And there's a very good project Unknown 6:10
        technique, and there are a co op, and they're really, really good. Right. So in other words, I think joining a building on the history of that kind of educational pedagogy, right, and also join that up with experiments that have already been done in the educational space. Week, and and the overlap of this group, and did you live collective and gcc and others that want to build in a learning model or an educational model into how they operate. And the requirement in the cooperative movement as the seventh pillar? I think it's the seventh to build in kind of an educational aspects and the sharing of knowledge between co Ops, there's a very pragmatic pilot, if we just bring these strands together. And I'd be more than happy. Maybe we could have a breakout group and talk about it and bring some other people in and really get hands on,
        locally that's doing that very robustly. Not with the DAP protocol and the peer to peer, but with the peer mentoring
        
        7:11 Eric: Please.
        
        Eric 7:16
        Yes. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I just want to comment that this should go in many different directions, that we should explore various technologies and understand the benefits and costs of each one. Because, yeah, I've been looking at it from beaker browser, the lightweight API's that can be written in beaker and pull crazy, did a talk about polymer, which is the framework and looking at, and it's very easy to bake, create react, like web components that run in the browser. So that could take us some of the way. But I think there are some server components needed as well. Like beaker, you do have to have a super pier to keep your site online if your PC is off. So yeah, I mean, I want to see where this can go. So thank you, we'll be working a lot together.
        
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- - - - David 13:25 : So yeah, I guess I mainly been trying to think about how we can marry the male and the female, the coding the technical, with the creative and the writing and the facilitator tree, and wondering which the best practical trial or exploration would be, to ensure that it sort of comes with superpowers. So I've been thinking, the first approach of that was like, maybe this kind of mapping of people wants and desires would be another way of doing it. Another one was with Stacey, which, and the sort of kind of interviewing of people like peer to peer interviewing and scaling that doing it that way as a way of doing it. And then I've been doing a little bit of sort of personal writing about roughly speaking, why I've been a prick, I think would be the appropriate title, and so on. I've been really working on that mainly.
        
        Josh 15:07
        I just want to say, David, you're not a prick. You just have a lot of babies to birth out of your womb, it's okay. Just in labor, brother.
        
        Josh 15:21
        I've been lately, just in the gang gang, I'm really down with rocking Andrew Yang. And I love that he's like a web developer of the social political scene. Because he's taking on Lawrence Lessig. I watched a nice interview with him and Lawrence Lessig. And Lawrence ran for president in 2016. So he's adopting the things that seem like they can work. And I'm a big proponent of that, because not just the universal basic income, but recalculating the structure of value from GDP to something different. And I think that's really exciting. On top of what we do, he's asking people to think about what would you do if you're over 18? And you live in America with an extra thousand dollars a month? Would you put it into a dap, maybe decentralized, automated, or a dow like some sort of system that you can run to get like, it's just new thinking, whether he gets elected or not, he's opened up the conversation, and it's, it's prevalent. So it's something that is going to be talked about for the next four to six years. And it'd be nice to think about what do you do with freeing up $20 trillion into the global economy? So that would be really interesting. So I think that's something I've been researching quite heavily this last week, and really understanding what that would look like, and how you would use that. Also, I had a great meeting with Aaron Perlmutter yesterday, showing me what the Dow stack is doing. And I said, you know, I've been making fun of him for eight months, like dow stock is bullshit. All this stuff is bullshit. Show me a doubt, show me a doubt. So show me finally there's two down stack has two down. 17:12 So we looked at the it was really interesting. No, because the Dow that's running has 44.4 ether, which equates to roughly $6,800. And one of the founders of the Dow stock wanted his friend to join the Dow. So he just invited him to join, but the Dow had to vote and they didn't want him in the Dow. So he didn't make it to the Dow. And it's really interesting how dogs are run, because they're decentralized autonomous organizations. And it was also interesting to see out of the hundred and 30 people that put in their money pool together, only about I would say, eight to 10% actually put their names next to it. So you could contact them to actually work with them. So it was truly autonomous in a lot of ways. About 88% were autonomous. So anyway, there are downs running and it'd be fun to create a cow for this group as well. So that's what I've been looking into.
        
        Colin I appreciate that. Everybody. I guess I like what was said yesterday in the meeting with Chris, that we're kind of in the PK II realm trying to look at maybe being a incubator of people's ideas. So I think knowledge is, is is a, it's almost like a necessary role. So if you have an ecosystem that can support, you're going to have people that are going to be doing knowledge trails, people writing documents, people who are actually fostering the project where they would say they're, they're the they're the one who came up with the idea or have been working on it a while, like, for example, fed wiki, that's word Cunningham's, I believe. And a lot of people have picked up on that. And it's, it's going to change in certain ways. So is that Ward's egg? Or is that David's egg? Or, you know, how does that all work? So I think it's sort of like what Josh was saying, we decide as we four can go and do what we need to do with something. If somebody wants to come with us, then we do it if they, if they don't. And we find it useful. A lot of this stuff is in the open realm, we're going to do it anyway. So I think I think it's really deciding which way to go to, to have the most effective attempt at the aim. So I think we have a meta aim in this group, and each person has to define their particular aim with their piece of software. And I think it's coming together like a bit of a puzzle. So you know, having the ability to have your own authorship, having autonomy, having decentralized abilities to grow outside of the typical software servers, and Googles and Facebook's. So that's, I think that's the main goal and how to, and I think the hard part is, how do you, how do you put value into it? And that's always been my question. If we had a whole lot of money, a million dollars in a nice suit, we'd be getting a lot further. But it seems like we have to bootstrap everything and hope that that money comes. So
        having expertise like Chris and people, and who have successfully found funding and can, I think, give us some good signals in that direction? Could could go a long way. Otherwise, it's it's a part time. effort, and it's would take a lot longer to achieve things. So I don't know, I'm just we're at that stage, where is this actually going to form? are we actually going to pick the three eggs or the two eggs or the seven eggs that we're going to, you know, take to the next stage to see if we can and see which ones hatch because some of them may be viable, but not ready yet some, some may be sterile, and some may be hot, and we need this. So I think we have to look at timescales. And, and what people are willing, or would rather do. So building these profiles, around projects, I think. So if you build a profile, here's my developer profile, here's my, you know, my artist profile, you can say I have both of those. So you know, which, which Am I using and when so I'm trying to use art, to do a cognitive thing, because I'm, I think the technology is another road that is finding its way sort of in the background, it will happen. But it's a lot of hard work. But without the art side of things I don't, I don't think we're going to get that synergy, I guess is the wrong word. To promote it and have it accepted and people get on board. Like, there's this program I just listened to call on CBC called the art of influence. And it's a it's a marketer, guy, Tom O'Reilly, I think is his name. And it's just fascinating how things actually make it into the world. And, you know, the happenstance way that, you know, this company did this, or they did this promotion, you know, we have air drops and things. So I don't want to go too far into that. But it's that kind of realm. on the periphery of the Unknown 23:51
        of the technology, even though technologies, my game, software development, I think that it's the it's the other leadership management, promotional incubation. doing that, right, is what's going to probably be more to the success of the project
        
        knowing each other working together and having that value, money value, or whatever. Because being a volunteer alone for six months isn't very profitable. So you know, I think there's a lot to say there. So finding finding the right balance, like, Who's got money? Who's got projects? Who's got skills? And how are we going to make this known to the world to get more money? I think that's the that's the promotion where the money will come if you have a good enough rock concert, you should be able to put it on.
- - - - Lauren 27:01
        Yeah, so Phoebe is involved in a lot of things. She’s in Enspiral She works with Nora Bateson. She, she does stuff all over the place, and decentralized governance. And she works at the Schumacher College. She has background is in science, but she's on the decentralized scene. And so she just posted that this week that she was interested in that, that she thinks that we should form a new religion. So I think she's kind of excited about it. And then she talked about science and how science is telling us something totally different than what we have, you know, something different than our common story that we have in our heads today. So if anyone has any leads for that. Love to hear that? Anyone?
        
        David 28:20
        So I pinged Phoebe on Twitter, DMS three, four times? Because I met her at that event in London. So she's in London and Newspeak house
        
        I suspect she's at the climate change event I forgot. Yes. So she's probably busy with that, but so far got no reply from her. And general, I would say that that theme that you picked up on, like the kind of new religion theme might sound a bit wacky, but I would consider it mainstream now. In other there's quite a lot of people from very different and sensible and robust areas, or converging on thinking about that. I know that, for instance, let's say the last two years, those whole series of talks between Jordan Peterson and the atheist guy, what's his name, about maps of meaning and spirituality and how they come together, and how whether we need God or we don't need God? And how how you can create a kind of new form of representation or scientific representation of human values. And whether that is that is spiritual or not that that was a mainstream massive debate with, with 10s of thousands of people turning up the events listening for three hours at a time. You've also got like, quite recently, about a month, Russell Brand and his podcast sick. He's like thinking about that, and experimenting that as well. So you got kind of podcast, comedian guy, like scientists, you've got kind of psychologists, you got people on the right people, people on the left, you got artists, and then you mentioned Phoebe, and she has been tweeting and talking about there. And I certainly it's always been coming up that particular theme. I don't think it's just like one individual with a crazy idea. I think a lot of people are coming together and wrestling with this topic of values. And they're wondering how to tell a story about it. And the best, historically known stories about values are the religions. Right? So it's, it's certainly, I think, really an interesting script and story to talk about. And you can come from it from a purely atheist side scientific point of view, you can come from a, you know, right wing point of view, you can come from a spiritual point of view, you can come from New Age point of view. And we can have a dialogue there, which is unlike any dialogue.
        
        Stacey 31:32
        just want to put on the record, this is what I'm absolutely the most passionate about, for a couple of years. I mean, I keep wanting to read my Bible. Um, for me, there's a lot in the Bible that if you take it from a literary point of view, I believe it explains a lot of the metaphysical. So I'd really be interested in that.
        
        Colin 31:58
        I have a lot to say about this, too. And that's a lot of times what Stacy and I talk about a lot of these different ways to be more human.And in and I come up with an idea. I would rather not be a religion, but I do want a cognitive shift, which is a religion, I guess, of a sort, or a religion could be considered a cognitive shift. But I'm thinking, like knowledge Olympics, or maybe call the religion critical thinking, you know, I'd be willing to go that far. It comes down, I think, to do we want to value our emotions, how we feel what we want to be right? Or do we want to actually respect the facts like the polar ice caps are melting. Do we want our president to feel that's not true? Or do we want the scientists to you know, bring them an elephant gun and show them the size of the hole? So, you know, I'm thinking that yes, there is a cognitive shift in the narrative there. But I like called the knowledge Olympics, and the Olympics seem to bring everybody together. And I think knowledge is the important thing. And I think if we could find a word like practical knowledge, ecology, it's almost like practical knowledge Olympics. Here we go. Right.
- - - - Lauren 33:30
        Yeah. Well, someone who's on the call yesterday, talk about what we talked about all I find the document and post in the chat.
        
        Alexar 33:38
        Yeah. Can you give us some context? What is yesterday about that you're referring to?
        
        See document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XMlwvl0mw4XyTgPEo9Uu5dZfy27e20EXEEUqGVOXSjk/edit#
        
        Colin 35:18
        yeah, it was it was basically about going over the seven or so sections of this document that he had from when in England, they decided they needed to do something to save their local pub. Because the insurance company wasn't going to pay for the fire damage. So Lauren asked for a document. And he basically used that one as a template and said it's by no means the the final idea. But it is something we can work off of. And the idea of the egg, the caterpillar is quite important here. Okay. I'm there. I will share it out. A little bit of this. And I asked Chris, if you wanted to help me make this more valid
        
        Alexar 36:05
        I like to I like to follow I can you give me context? Because I couldn't. Yeah, so so we don't even know what this
        
        Colin:
        the meeting, the meeting was about these these two documents right here. So I can I can post these in the chat. This is Chris's original. Oh, I didn't get that. Right. Sorry. So Well, the thing is, it comes from the egg here, essentially.
        
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- - - - David 1:41:16
        So that aspect, Josh, if you could maybe fill us in, I'm not quite sure what Phalan was saying there is the idea that in order to give human control of the governance and of the project, the approach of participatory design of paper prototyping, or having these conversations and sketching out on paper, then doing some UX design, and saying, that's how we want the governance to work, right? That approach is totally amenable with this technical backend stuff, right? So we started off with a shitty simple interface, a few sketches of some colored squares, and what you with some ideas behind it, what we want to do is have some classes of participatory design led process, where we have this discussion as a group about the principles. And then we have a group that works on the design, we feed that back, we go through the wireframe look at it and say, Yeah, no, build a bit of it feedback go through the Agile cycles. So hooking up with the the class that failing was doing that would be great. So we talked a bit about it. And then Johnny's got this four week course with the university level. And we can maybe work on some smart contracts or more wisdom aspect of the UX there. And just by staging, bit by bit, these aspects, but starting very pragmatically, we can make sure all the time it's under this kind of narrative discussion in zoom, participatory design bit of software stuff, come back to the group go around again. And I think that's a kind of six week cycle.
- - - - Stacey 1:44:19
        yeah. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay, so I'm just really frustrated. Because I've been having computer problems, one died, and, you know, the energy meeting, so but what I want to say is for the brief time that I saw, when David put up the chart, the guardianship, I don't remember the other categories. But I would really recommend, like, for tip for like, Saturday, I would have liked to have heard more of the projects. And I'm thinking to specifically maybe during the week, have these guardianship meetings, where we talk about the contracts and all those things. And and maybe that, you know, if a meeting was designated in that way, that would be where I mean, we're Eric would talk about his project, and you would talk about your project. And I just think it would be, again, I don't remember all the things and like I said, I'm really frazzled now, but I'm definitely I think Guardian shut shift type meetings should be separate. Because if you have new people coming in, that are coming on a Saturday to see what's going on. You know, they come in and they leave. Yeah.
        
        Stacey 1:46:01
        Well, no, not to get the inputs, it's better to have kind of smaller groups, because in these groups, because really, I was I was very quiet, becauselike, you can't really talk about this even large group. So I agree with this, I see that these things have to be done in a different way, tried to reconsider it, individually talk about it. I would agree more with that.What but what I was gonna say is, if I could add, after the smaller meetings where the smaller groups figured out exactly, then they come to the larger and throw it out. And there's room for input. So it's not like it ends in the small group.
        
        Lauren 1:46:48
        I kind of thought that that's what we did. This week. We did have a lot of small group meetings, and then we're coming back here.
        
        Colin 1:48:24
        And I think that's where Stacy and I have been talking a lot about how do we break this up and use one on ones to, you know, to keep from having huge sessions, where we're discussing or value discussion, can we say, okay, there's going to be a value discussion, anybody interested, go to that discussion, and don't complain about discussing about values and, and get your your eyes out. So, you know, again, the map as a, as a larger layer, and it doesn't have, you know, the mind map, not a graph map, this is a mind map, which is different. And so, you know, this is a way into David's world right there. So, you know, if we spent time preparing how we wanted to do a float, it's all a work in progress. It's agile, it's iterative, how do we not waste our time, what I like to do is put these Trello markers. So if, if what Chris said, was, don't use what I'm doing, but look at what I'm doing, and and in a context, so you just don't pretend that you're starting as a caterpillar or a butterfly, we're starting as eggs. And before we start is eggs, we got to have a list of potential eggs. And you know, we have to have the PK egg, is what we're growing over here. Right. So all this stuff is all this PK egg. And part of that is to get a server stood up. Another one is to, you know, have have more structured meetings.And I think Digi life is, is at the point where they're doing that, for better or worse, it's very structured, and it feels very good. The way that they pull in their their documentation work together on the topic, and have, and starting to build tools to facilitate that conversation. I find that interesting. But this is just my crayons. And I think that we could break off and have specific meetings.
        And then, as somebody had said, Come back to the Saturday to kind of update everything. And if we have, in the end the proper signaling, which is what Josh impressed upon me early on and GCC which is important. So people kind of know who's on first, who's on second. And why I haven't been contacted for the last week, because that guy is really, really busy doing such and such, it's not that he's ignoring me. So you know, this trust thing gets built up with stronger signaling. And I think if we did have a way to do this publishing of the ideas as we go, and so that's what kind of Stacy's talking about if we're going to do it, and and David say, Well, why do we always talking about it? Why don't we put it in a Fed wiki so we can show it. So the and there is a beautiful doorway into that discussion, where Chris left off? What's an EQ, because he really didn't expect us to go up and define this too much. He gave us an example of what he did, and why the LLP was important. But he says basically, this could be any kind of an egg at all that you're trying to grow. And David's saying, Well, again, that's way too far up the road. I agree with Chris, but we shouldn't be talking about that here. But we should appreciate this, this basic flow from the egg up to the butterfly. And I would like to make this more concise to match up with this diagram. But maybe not necessary. It's just a matter of navigation and mental.
        How do you say, coherence, we're looking for coherence, so we're not wasting our time. And we can get down to doing these things, which, you know, I've already I've already built one of these locally, right? It could have been running on a digital cloud two weeks ago. If you know, I had a $5 droplet, I dropped it four months ago, if I didn't, it would already be reading there. So anyway, I don't want to limit but yeah, we can do things. And if we have people who are helping us document it, and lay it out so that people can visualize where we're going in ways. And then I think we can get miles down the road, we can say, you know, put that in the parking lot for
        
        David 1:52:26
        Colin, I've arranged this guy called Jason, who's a UX JavaScript developer I mentioned to him is the guy that is got some spare time now. So maybe together with Joshua as well. And other people who don't if Alex Are you would like to look at the server and the technology stack. We could just arrange a little meeting and spin that up and get a few coders who just got some time commitment on that. And just get move ahead with that next week. So next Saturday, we can record what we do and present that back here on Saturday.
        
        Joshua 1:53:51
        But yeah, I think let's go. Let's get started. I think we're on the right track. I also wanted to say, Stacey, thanks for coming to the meeting. We need project managers, we need people that don't understand what we're doing to be a person behind saying I don't know what we're doing. But is it done yet? Me? Let's put a little date on the calendar like I sent you, David, let's schedule this call. But did that call happen? Did David and Alexa and Josh meet and talk about the server? Are we using Digital Ocean just someone that can project manage and just put tasks or milestones down and say okay, we're going to move those out of the Gantt chart, and push them forward because they didn't happen because of x, y and z. So just to speak the same language with everyone when a task is dependent on another task. It's nice to know, did that task happen? Did David meet with Chris Cook? And you have that? Oh, you did have that conversation? Awesome. Now what? So just making sure we have milestones would be a nice addition to the group, I think. I don't know if you're into that status. But I love to work with you.
        
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